Stare Down the Bull EP 5: Building AI That Actually Works: A Conversation with Joseph Hackman
By Susan Hunt
December 8, 2025
Get ready for a deep dive with Joseph Hackman, AI leader, technologist, and founder of Permanence. We talk about the evolution of AI, why enterprise adoption keeps stalling, and how engineering teams can use AI to create real, measurable impact. Joseph opens up about his early love for computing, what he learned leading high-performing AI teams, and why quality, not hype is the future of AI in the enterprise.
Key Concepts & Takeaways
- Access creates future innovators — Joseph began coding at age six because he had early exposure and encouragement, a theme that continues to shape his views on talent.
- Research alone isn’t enough — His success stems from obsessing over real-world customer impact, not theoretical AI performance.
- Maintenance is an enterprise crisis — AI’s biggest value is freeing engineers from the crushing burden of maintenance work.
- AI “quality” is the differentiator — Most tools require humans to babysit the AI; Permanence is built to deliver work that’s correct on the first pass.
- Enterprise AI adoption fails because the tools are too hard — Startups can build demos quickly; enterprise teams need reliability, clarity, and low-friction workflows.
- The next five years of AI won’t be about science breakthroughs — It’ll be about integrating today’s models into everyday workflows and building solid, lasting systems.
- Choose AI partners based on expertise and execution — Enterprises must evaluate both domain knowledge and AI depth, not just demos.
When I sat down with Joseph Hackman for this episode of Stare Down the Bull, I knew we were in for a masterclass in what real, grounded AI leadership looks like. Joseph has been on the AI journey longer than most. He began writing code in BASIC at age six and later helping lead the resurgence of neural networks and natural language processing during the pivotal years at Intel.
What struck me most in our conversation is how consistently Joseph returns to one theme: real-world impact matters more than research prestige. While many AI labs chase publications, Joseph built teams that sat directly with customers, listened to their problems, and delivered solutions that improved people’s lives within days, not quarters.
That same philosophy underlies Permanence, the company he founded to tackle one of enterprise engineering’s biggest, least glamorous problems: maintenance. Engineers hate it. It slows product innovation, eats budgets, and creates security risks when ignored. But, as Joseph explains, that’s precisely why AI should be doing it, because boring, repetitive work is where AI can shine.
What Permanence does differently is deliver quality. Not demos. Not “assistive” AI that requires constant oversight. Actual, production-grade work that ships without bugs. His perspective is clear: AI should do the work, and humans should simply review it, just like reviewing another engineer’s work.
We also talk about where AI is headed in the next five years. Despite the hype, Joseph believes the science may stabilize, and the real transformation will come from building practical, lasting tools on top of today’s advancements.
For enterprises drowning in noise, his advice is simple: look for teams who deeply understand both AI and the domain you operate in and judge them by the quality of the work, not the beauty of a demo.
It was a fascinating, energizing conversation, and one I believe every tech leader needs to hear.
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